Re: Best text editor for web development?reply by Abhishek Chatterjee I use different editors for different task. Dreamweaver and Frontpage work out great as HTML editors (hand coding each and every HTML line is real stupid in my sense). For php DevPHP is the best! awesome platform with internal webserver to test php pages.
All in all, yes VIM is the alrounder editor, but it doesn't have the "turn of the century" editing features. Some people like Srirangan, have learned to be accustomed to the traditional methods, but the corporate world would prefer people having new world habbits. Hence I would suggest to go for the advanced development tools.
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Re: Best text editor for web development?reply by Srirangan Dreamweaver is ofcourse a very powerful tool. I would have recommended that, but then Tejas specifically asked for text editors. :-) And I will never suggest Frontpage for any task to anyone, ever. It's plain crap.
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Re: Best text editor for web development?reply by Abhishek Chatterjee Deny Arrogance!
It got ranked as the second best HTML editor after Dreamweaver by probably loads of Computing Magazines, including Digit, C/Net, PC Magazine etc.
Frontpage has literally invented new funda's in the field of WYSIWYG HTML editing, which at its time, no one had. (e.g. Sitemap based structuring...).
And to just have an idea of what impact Frontpage made on Webdevelopers, try considering the fact that nearly every web space on today's date provides Front page server extensions.
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Re: Best text editor for web development?reply by mastercomputers Deny Arrogance indeed but I would not call coding each and every HTML line real stupid either.
There's only one problem with WYSIWYG editors in my case and it's how correct they can conform to W3C standards, that is why hand coding can excel in this aspects, although another WYSIWYG Editor called XStandards claims to write only valid HTML. Too many people disregard standards, and in some countries it'd be considered discrimination for the accessibility means.
A text editor that I thought was quite good was tsWebEditor, it's open source and free to use and has some nice features that I wish other editors would combine into their editors. It will handle PHP, CGI/PERL, Javascript, (X)HTML and CSS just fine. You can read more about it (and also download it) from http://tswebeditor.net.tc/
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Re: Best text editor for web development?reply by Abhishek Chatterjee Well, what I meant was, if you can acknowledge Dreamweaver as a good product, you have to accept FrontPage as another wonderful product. You can't blindly recite the anti-MS carol.
Considering hand coding, well mastercomputers, when a website means business, when it means before-deadline completion, when it means creativity, we MUST use a WYSIWYG editor, so that the time we save can be instead implemented on Flash/Graphics and Server side scripting or overall web solution development. And 99% of industrial portals mean the same.
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Re: Best text editor for web development?reply by mastercomputers Srirangan never said why FrontPage is not good, so I tend to ignore it unless he had valid points but you can't MAKE people acknowledge both Dreamweaver and FrontPage to be good products if they think the other isn't good.
My point is WYIWYG does not always conform to standards, the person asked for the "Best" (I would rather hear more about the persons needs to make a proper evaluation they trying to recommend something suited for them) text editor for web development, and it could be Dreamweaver or FrontPage while the WYSIWYG side could just be an added bonus, but I feel people should trial them out first and see if it suits their needs.
I think you should have an open-mind, otherwise you seem to be a hypocrit. You're saying that if a website means business, then hand coders are left out in the cold? They can't reach deadlines? They are not creative at all? That it is a MUST to use a WYSIWYG editor? (that is quite a bold statement) You think time wise they can not be as quick as a WYSIWYG person? If that's not arrogance then what is?
There's always been the great debate over hand coders vs WYSIWYG editors, and I think you should research into this, as both sides have valid points but it does not mean they just have the skills of one or the other, they could possess both. Hand coders can do some aspects quicker than someone using a WYSIWYG person, which saves time, WYSIWYG people can do some things faster than a hand coder, it pretty much levels things out I think.
And web designing companies, I've always found it's a combination of both but you seem one-sided, I think that both are good, but I feel hand coders have the advantage of being able to go outside the visual editors limits to create pages.
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Re: Best text editor for web development?reply by Srirangan >> Srirangan never said why FrontPage is not good, so I tend to
>> ignore it unless he had valid points
The only reason I didn't list down my argument was because there were so many of them. here's a brief list of my main complaints with MS Frontpage:
- No where close to confirming to even the liberalest standards, this is an age where standards and XML tend to dominate;
- Tendency to generate only MS IE specific code;
- Total lack of features when compared to the likes of Dreamweaver;
But before I carry on (and trust me the list is a long one!) if we just read thw question, the questioner specifically asks for text editors. Hence Wysiwyg editors don't even come under consideration.
=o)
Cheers!
Srirangan
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Re: Best text editor for web development?reply by Abhishek Chatterjee Quote by mastercomputers:
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I think you should have an open-mind, otherwise you seem to be a hypocrit. You're saying that if a website means business, then hand coders are left out in the cold? They can't reach deadlines? They are not creative at all? That it is a MUST to use a WYSIWYG editor? (that is quite a bold statement) You think time wise they can not be as quick as a WYSIWYG person? If that's not arrogance then what is?
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mastercomputers, there is a valid debate over tens and thousands of topics, but certain sides come out as sheer "silently accepted truth" whereas the others as an effort of holding on to ego.
May I ask you to post a few details as to how hand coding a COMPLETE website is more effective than WYSIWYG? You see this discussion follows the lines of "Which is a better diet in terms of nutrition, Veg or Non-Veg". But as the fact remains, a non-veg can always cater to the nutritious veg food, its the veg who is tight handed. Similarly, a WYSIWYG developer can always revert to hand coding, but the reverse is not effectively true. And also as for arrogance, I see no arrogance in my statement. Its absolutely valid to say that WYSIWYG editors cut down development times by 1/10th and let you be more creative with graphics. Now I simply ain't saying that the kind of websites that exist in the Open Source world shall be made in WYSIWYG because they are simply not in the eye-catchy business. But when a business portal with "non-tech" visitors is desired, the requirement standards are different. It's the voice of nearly every web developer I have known. They tend to take a one month break and master Dreamweaver or Frontpage rather than dragging on with hand coding. Alright, I am not saying its the public webmaster voice, but atleast of those whom I know.
Check www.swatigems.com , me and my friend made the flash of the site. If you see, the images/flash are all integrated in tables. Now it would have pissed us off to do their placement in hand coded ways... it was much easier to use the draw tables feature of Frontpage.
Anyhow I see no point in arguing... people have their own ways. I suggested the most widely accepted way (else wise costly tools like Dreamweaver and Frontpage wouldn't have existed at all you see!), not the "open source" or the KISS way.
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Re: Best text editor for web development?reply by Abhishek Chatterjee As for Srirangan's continued arrogance with "Frontpage sucks", I would like to ask you sri, what features do you see missing in Frontpage?
What is your development time with either of the Editors? If its one-sided, then you shouldn't be discussing at all.
I myself acknowledge that Dreamweaver has some features Frontpage lacks (like built-in FTP and Split screen coding view) but it isn't THAT HUGE A GAP.
Usually people install Dreamweaver and just because it pops up with a crammed up interface, with buttons and toolbars here and there, it looks feature rich.
Come to reality, any developer who has used both the editors and isn;t partial, will realise that MS hires truly potential interface designers. Frontpage starts in simple user mode with you having the option of "cramming it up". Compare even a single IDE to the MS VS.NET2005 IDE and you will see how ages ahead MS is, in making development times shorter, and revolutionizing your interface.
Frontpage has revolutionary features too like I mentioned previously. Now don't reckon me as a MS loving fool, I am just trying to be rational.
If Frontpage sucks that much, why do web servers still maintain Frontpage server extensions??? Have a look at Frontpage 2003, and you will see the line parting Dreamweaver and itself diminishing.
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Re: Best text editor for web development?reply by Srirangan My personal non preference for MS Frontpage should not be termed as arrogance. I am entitled to an opinion. Plus this question is about text editors and neither Frontpage nor Dreamweaver are text editors.
Cheers!
Srirangan
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Re: Best text editor for web development?reply by Abhishek Chatterjee Fine, going by the lines of a Text Editor, just give a shot to BLUEFISH.
It supports syntaxes of most web dev languages, plus has customizable regular expressions.
Probably the best i have come across yet.
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Re: Best text editor for web development?reply by mastercomputers I think we owe Tejas an apology, there's no reason to continue this debate, why not ask the question as something we can discuss, share ideas and work on points which are valid and not, instead of trying to decide which is better, because if you had the both of best worlds, you'd benefit either way.
As for that site, I don't like sites that don't pass web standards.
Standards aren't put in place to make web designing harder on you but to make it more beneficial for everyone, including the viewers who probably count more, if this is based solely on a WYSIWYG editor, then there's my biggest point already shown, it does not comply to standards, there's no telling how visual browsers are going to render this site because it lacks consistency that browsers aim for, and I wouldn't even bother with a text browser it's too shocking to see how it discriminates.
Best viewed in IE 5, at a resolution of 800 x 600, even resizing my browser to that size I had horizontal scrolling, again it should have a more fluid design, is it because it relies on the spliced images to be correctly laid out in the numerous amounts of tables and nest tables.
Tables should be used for representing data and not for site layouts.
I agree, table making maybe quicker in a WYSIWYG editor, but this is not the correct use for them. This is why sometimes being able to think outside the tool you use is better.
If this site ever was given to another web developer to take on, he'd be shocked like I am already, you've already made his workload heavy if he was to improve the coding, especially seperating content from presentation otherwise he can continue to maintain it at the mess it is, but that's not benefiting anyone.
As for a WYSIWYG editor transition to hand coding, I think you've got it the wrong way around, It's easier for a hand coder to switch over, otherwise why would these tools be aimed at new comers to web development. They do not need to know the underlying code, it's usually the case that these people do not have time to learn the code (this is for all programming languages and their numerous development environments), so the choice to use these tools to help them is the best way for them to get it done quicker than knowing it properly.
There's broken links in that site, is this something the editor can not pick up, or was it not picked up at testing stages?
As for accessibility issues, it failed in many aspects. (this is the test for people who may have disabilities and how effective they would be able to browse your site). Again another thing that should have been looked at in testing stages.
I don't know what to say really, the site looks good in a visual browser, though being at 800 x 600 shows me more half a screen with whitespace, still looks like most sites I've seen that use flash, especially like reseller sites, so it makes me not think WYSIWYG but based on premade templates already available.
It's sure an eye opener though and all I have to say is that no matter if you're a WYSIWYG person or a hand coder, following standards is still something that should not be overlooked as this will help everyone's internet experience become more enjoyable.
If the time saved in a WYSIWYG editor leaves enough time for testing and fixing the inconsistencies, or is this where hand coding can actually benefit the person?
As I say, there's no reason why you can't have the best of both worlds and use WYSIWYG and hand coding, one for speed, the other for optimisation.
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Re: Best text editor for web development?reply by Abhishek Chatterjee OMG! are you trying to prove the competency of that site called swatigems.com??? I never asked you to analyse the website's structure! I just quoted an example of the graphics and its layout.
And for that fact, why don't you post a few of your creations, so that we can see how webstandardized sites you make!
Dude,
#1) We made the FLASH/Graphics, mentioned previously very clearly. PERIOD. Rest was taken care by GulOnline (the company that hired us as freelancers), which apparently isn't very well done. They have screwed it up over time.
#2) Talking of templates, it seems you are the rudest person I have met!!! Why don't you show me some flash websites that look similar??? THAT SITE WAS DESIGNED BY US AND IT TOOK US 1 MONTH to think up. Each and every element of the animation/graphics took us hours of creative thinking (something that might be alien to you) Its because probably you come from a species of "White on Black" or "Black on White" website backgrounds, you stack up all flashy graphics websites into one category, that probably your neural network structure treats as "not my cup of tea... so i dont care". Dude, creating a graphically stunning website is an creative art, that not every terminal coder posseses.
#3) Frontpage/Dreamweaver take care of every broken link, but as I said, we were just offshored the graphics development, which we have handled as, probably being the best on the internet.
#4) And whether tables are to be used with presentation, or layers are to be used, thats up to the web developer. First you need to try to develop a SUCCESSFUL website, which I guess you have little experience of. Now if you wanna really analyze me, why don't you take a look at www.Koolkampus.com (having a daily stat of 10k+ visitors) for which I coded the front/back end. I have done a mixed, WYSIWYG and text editor development. Note, that site is not mine and have no control over it as of yet. So don't go off with, this link doesnt work and that doesnt work. It is a successful website and probably I don't want you to challenge it either.
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Re: Best text editor for web development?reply by Adkron I think eclipse does a great job with almost any web development you can think of. Most language highlighting is built-in, and what isn't can be found in a plugin. It alkso has plugins for subversion support, and many other change management softwares. There is also a version of eclipse for almost any operating system. This keeps it so you can have the same development enviroment no matter where you are. good Luck.
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